SPEAKER_00 0:08

Hi, and welcome back to Humanizing Insurance. As always, I'm your host, Daniel Grimward Byrne, and I'm delighted to be joined today by Alan Demurt, the president and founder of Insure Tech Consulting. Alan, welcome to Humanizing Insurance. How are you, sir?

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Hey Daniel, glad to be here with you. Thanks for the invitation.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Oh, you are you are very, very welcome. You are someone that I've wanted to have on the podcast uh pretty much since I had the idea uh to do it. So thank you for for giving us some time. And this is this is one of those weeks um we're recording where it's easier for us to get together because we haven't changed our clocks yet, and you changed yours 10 days, two weeks ago. Uh so the time difference across the pond is is shortened. Uh so delighted to have you. Alan, we always start in the same place with the same question, which is what did you want to be when you were growing up? And how close is that to where you are now?

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Yeah, you know, for me, um, I'm probably not one of the most deliberate people that had this notion of exactly what they wanted to do. You know, my wife, she's a lawyer, she always wanted to be a lawyer. Um, I probably started off thinking I wanted to follow my father's footsteps. He was a firefighter. That seemed like the coolest thing to do, and um enjoyed a lot of good times with him, but you know, he pretty much dissuaded me from doing that. Uh, and um, you know, he he reminded me of the monotony that happens between incidents, uh, being in a smaller um, you know, town. And so um I ditched that idea um and kind of just pursued this the thought that you know, wanted to go to college, really like business. Uh, probably saw myself doing something in manufacturing um more than insurance, although claims has some manufacturing overtones when you really get into it. Um, so yeah, that's that's the story. And you know, my path was pretty simple. It was um, you know, get to college, you know, pursue a business degree, um, and then follow the opportunities that were out there. And um, we can talk all about how how that insurance uh concept came into mind. Um, but yeah, that that's how it all began.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

Well, I mean, let's let's stay on that on that train. How did you get into insurance?

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Yeah, you know, so again, out of college, it's like, what are you gonna do? I I worked through college, which I think was uh, you know, mostly a blessing. I mean, especially today when you look at college tuition and huge debt that people come out of school with. Um, I certainly didn't have that problem because I worked and paid it as I went. Um, it was challenging, you know, keeping up with a schedule, working like 30 hours a week. Um, and I worked for a supermarket grocery store. And, you know, I had a lot of the extra responsibilities come my way, and and uh I probably earned those by just doing the little extra. So, you know, I was the guy that would help close up the store on the weekends. Um, I ran the front end, which meant some of the scheduling and you know, making sure the customer flow was working. I even ran some of the reports, and so you know, that gave me a lot of other skills coming out of school that I already had. Um, probably the most challenging one was the schedule. And because people being human, they have their own needs and wants, and you know, had everything from those that would complain a lot no matter what you did for them, others that were always angling for the Friday night off and so forth. So really juggling all that. But it was, you know, again, the hue this is a perfect podcast, the humanizing of it, because you had to really figure out what made each individual tick and create some sense of harmony. So it felt like they were getting something and that you're being fair and honest with them in that process. Otherwise, it would be anarchy, you know, uh with a bunch of part-time people saying, I'm I'm not gonna work those shifts. Um so it's kind of a natural transition to I want to do something in management. And so, you know, uh, there were a couple companies that were recruiting. It turned out I had a good friend that worked for Aetna uh Property and Casualty. And, you know, most people think of Aetna today as a healthcare company because they are. Um, but they had a huge PC business, um, like a hundred-year-old company. And so um I started in a newly launched area, which was claims training. And, you know, what I learned after I joined the company is that they had so much turnover in the claims organization uh that they needed to start a training onboarding type of program. Um and that was pretty normal. I mean, you know, the reason for the turnover was there was a fair amount of burnout in being a claim adjuster. Um, there was good competition where people left one company to go to another. And some of these things I'm talking about exist today, right? They've they followed me through my whole lifespan, you know, 40 years. And um uh, but they were there then. And so it was kind of a novel idea. Let's get a training unit up and started. And and that appealed to me for a couple of reasons. One, it was like, okay, I get to work for a big company, so it's not manufacturing, but it's a big company, and and that that suited me well. Uh, the other was they're gonna train you and you're gonna learn all this stuff. Um, as far as workload goes, it was, you know, I kind of had that baptism working in retail weekends and long hours and you know, late at night to close up and all this stuff, and then go to college during the day. Um, so for me, it was no big deal. But the people around me, I noticed it was like, oh, this is really hard. It's a lot of hours, a lot of work, and bought customers. I'm like, okay, um, you kind of roll with it. The other, the the fun part, of course, was when they start enticing you with it. You're gonna get to investigate claims and figure out what happened in the loss and make decisions based on that. And then if you want to really graduate your career, you may get a territory with a company car and you can go out and and and you know, see damages. And so I found that highly fascinating, and I still do. It's it's an exciting part of the industry that I think sometimes gets overlooked. Um, and if you really like that sort of thing, and then you know, just kind of a side note, later in my career, one of the I think most impressive um experiences anybody can get is going on catastrophe duty. And, you know, yeah, I think not only geek out over the magnitude of what damages can be caused uh from an event, but just seeing how much you can really help people. So if you have any size heart in your body, uh walking up to someone's home and you know, being able to help get them on a path to recovery, just to, you know, making them feel better about you're there to help them, um there's no better feeling, right? You're you're really there for that purpose. Uh the other thing that tends to happen is um carriers loosen their requirements to some degree, so you can actually take the gloves off and and help people fast. And uh that's what that's all about. So you get those kinds of experiences along the way, and you realize, wow, this is a really good profession. And so that's what's always kept me going. The other thing I probably would talk about is just the variety. So I've had people ask me over my again, 40-something years, wow, you've been in insurance all this time. What do you do? And I said, well, focus mostly on claims. Um, oh, you stayed in the same area, you know, of of the industry. And it's like almost inferring that, well, isn't that a little boring, or isn't that and I I explain like claims is this massive universe, and you know, it no one can say that they've conquered it all because of the just the variety and the types of scenarios and the loss types and the sizes of them. Um and I tended to move my career around uh to climb the ladder involved a fair amount of relocation. So I get to work in different parts of the country. Um and you know, with a lot of different leaders, a lot of different scenarios, and small and large-scale operations and so um specialty areas, you know, personalized areas. And so I never felt like I was in the same job for more than a couple of years. And that that really appealed to me, um, especially around building my career.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

Awesome. We're gonna we're gonna chat about that uh hopefully a little bit later. Um first of all, just speaking more generally about claims. So a few episodes ago, I interviewed David Cabron, and he you know, he was advocating everyone spend some time in claims, regardless of what you do because of how much you learn. And I uh in a comment that I still stand by, I refer to claims people as a little bit gnarly, uh, generally speaking, because they they're the end of the promise, right? They they deal with everything that's happened before them, and and they're the last bit, and and arguably they're the only bit that really deals with the insured uh on a on a regular basis. But I mean that that's my view. What's what do you think people outside of claims functions don't understand about claims people?

SPEAKER_01 9:45

Yeah, good point. I think some of the reputations well deserved, you know, gnarly or uh jaded. Um, you know, if it was left to the claim people, they would only write one policy a year and it'd be the most profitable one that never had a claim. Um course that we'd be out of business real soon because we'd have no work to do as claim people. Um, so there's definitely that jaded lens. And then it it's it it's easily um earned because you know, claims isn't just dealing with that policy holder or that coverage or the the issue that may arise from how the product was underwritten, but it's all these intermediaries. We see, you know, we were dealing with uh vendors and service providers, and uh many of them are adversarial. You know, there's a whole cottage industry built around claims with medical providers and you know, uh body shops and lawyers, and so all these um entities there, they're there to profit, you know, provide a service. And so, you know, you navigate through that jungle. Um but I think that's again, it's it's it's uh it's also what I think makes claim people good at what they do because you have to have thick skin. Um, but at the end of the day, it's a lot about compromise and and um negotiating and and selling, you know, selling settlements and and making uh the resolution feel palatable to all sides, even though it may not be perfect, right? Um all while meeting the company's requirements and you know um exercising your um fiduciary responsibility. And um that's evolved over time. I think you know I use that word or that phrase fiduciary responsibility deliberately because that was like priority number one when I started out, which meant lost containment or paying the right amount on the claim. That was paramount. It still is today, um, but there's been so much other stronger influences around customer service experience. And, you know, most recently we've been in what, a decade or longer of expense management, you know, uh, which may mean to some that we can afford to give a little bit more indemnity dollars because we're not going to spend as much money on the adjusting side or the lost adjustment side of the equation. And so I think navigating all those um, you know, difficulties just makes it, you know, uh a challenge, and it's not for everybody. Um so I think what outsiders may overlook is that what I see a lot of is they think it's claim processing. You're just you're just taking the widget, you're moving it along a path and then to an outcome. And that's probably true for some types of claims, but I think what gets overlooked is that um there's all these contextual matters that arise. Um, and then depending on the product, you know, the other thing I would say is a common pitfall is when we talk about claims, we talk about it as one thing. When really it's a range of things, again, depending on the coverages and the size of the claims and so forth. So, certainly for an auto-glass claim, for instance, um, that's pretty mechanized these days, and that would be more like a claim processing. In fact, a lot of it's outsourced, if you will, um, vastly different from a home fire where you know it's very nuanced in the context of that particular home and that homeowner and so forth, and then notwithstanding some of the commercial lines that you get into much more. So I I think that's part of it is just um you know, maybe not recognizing some of the complexities that you always have to remind um of that variation.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

Sure. Um I want to talk about the big chunk of your career, which was spent uh nationwide. And you spent 24 years in nationwide, um, rising up, as you said, rising up the ladder. You ended as the vice president of claims innovation and technology. What what about the roles or about nationwide or about anything else made you stay for 24 years?

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Yeah. You know, it's like uh a lot of people would say is it's amazing how fast that goes by. Um, I remember, you know, the first part of my career, I I couldn't wait to get like five to ten years under my belt because then you had that like street cred, if you will, that you were a seasoned, you know, insurance or claims professional or a leader, you know, by that time. Um I'm sorry I ever did that because it took forever for the first 10 years. And then the last two decades, you know, I blinked my eyes and they're they they go by fast. And I think a lot of that had to do with again, just constantly changing roles and new opportunities and different places and new challenges, and then you know, macro changes uh and what happens with claims and how you focus over time and different issues. So it goes by really quickly. Um, but you know, again, I aside from just that variety and constant challenge, um, you know, for me it was about growing my career and career path. And, you know, I realized um early on if you wanted to advance, you had to do the extra. Uh, you had to be willing to step out and raise your hand and sell, do something different. A lot of people are getting to claims, uh, price, same with underwriting. They like and tend to be really comfortable with um certain areas. So, you know, and you'll see this. Like if somebody's in casualty injury lines, they tend to stay there, you know, 10, 20, 30 years. Uh, if they're doing homeowner property claims, they they may focus there. I really enjoyed the differences of learning those uh different segments. And you know, you come to realize there's more similarities than there are differences. But it's really hard once you're established to switch those lanes. You know, you get 10, 15 years under your belt as an injury expert, really hard to then switch over and say I'm gonna you know write estimates for auto-physical damage. Um, but you know, I diff I along those lines, increasing responsibility. So, you know, in into roles where I had more and more piled on, you know, I've had the benefit of um just a blessing really of having a number of um situations where you know with something new that we're starting up, like quality assurance or the uh national catastrophe team or innovation. I most of what I dealt with, like a lot of people in claims seem to get, is these turnaround assignments where you have kind of a failing region uh that needs to get you know turned around. Um and so that was a fair amount of what I did uh throughout my career. But then, yeah, toward the latter years at nationwide, you know, just constantly seeking something new and different to do. Um, you know, I went from the specialty lines, which was our agribusiness and non-standard, and that was kind of a hybrid. It was really two jobs in one, um, which they were polar opposites. One one was, you know, high severity, low frequency, and agribusiness with commercial and workers comp. And then the other was really the kind of the bare knuckles non-standard, high frequency, low severity. And one, the non-standard we were actually getting ready to divest ourselves from that business in the agribusiness, um, was growing. Um and then then came along this idea of innovation, and uh that was really a popular uh position that was launched uh you know, 2016 in my case, but you know, a lot of companies were doing the same thing. And I actually refused the job, you know, the third time I was kind of had my arm twisted into saying yes, but the first few times I said no because my inclination was I've seen different, you know, the flavor of the month, right? Uh for for insurance. And you know, we're really focused on this and it's really important to our future. And then a few years later, it's you know, we're onto something new. Um it's good to see that it's still vibrant and changing all the time, it's still vibrant. So yeah, um all those different assignments that I've glossed over a number of them in between, um that's what really kept me going those all those years, is getting an opportunity to do something different and learn and contribute in different ways. And I like you can't ask for more in a career. Um so that's what kind of kept me going.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

If someone's listening to this and is you know relatively early in their career or or even five to ten years in with a company, there's uh there's like a almost a binary school of thought where one is you have to move to grow, and the other is you know, loyalty rewards. Um and and I guess on the the opposite side of that that binary piece, you can look like uh you're someone that changes jobs every two years, uh, but then you know, if you stay for a long time, you could be called a you know a a company man. Is there anything were there any moments during your 24 years where you thought my loyalty is making me miss stuff? Or did you always think that this is the best place for me?

SPEAKER_01 19:15

Yeah, that that's I was extremely conscious of that. And I've become more uh enlightened around that, you know, now, especially since I've left you know the corporate carrier side and and and running my own business. Um you know, there were different opportunities that came throughout my career. Some of them were internal, so I'd say they're both internal and external, internal meeting outside of claims. Uh early on, I had an opportunity to go into the nationwide's bond uh area. Um and then, you know, I had an external agency approach me about joining and helping run their agency. Um, and then later on, just different um solution providers, you know, some which were small and now are global companies. You know, in my lifespan, I've had the fortune of seeing how like some of these really small companies that have grown into massive global operations. Um, you know, what's salvage companies, you know, repair management companies, uh, rental car, you know, it's amazing how that's all grown up. So I'd say I was more conscious of it than anything, but you, you know, it's like, what am I missing? And, you know, I also recognize I'm a realist is, you know, you once you really get um, I think the industry promotes, it's two-sided. Uh just stop there and say it's you know the reward system is really um there to um for vertical rising of a career, right? You know, you you go to the next level, the next level it's you know, it's more, you know, higher salary and so forth. There's less reward um to move horizontally. And like I said earlier, I think people's comfort is typically to stay in one area. So it's kind of like this uh recipe that you know the upside is you create expertise, the downside is it's a missed opportunity. And I would always, you know, mentoring people, I would say, you know, the beauty of working with a company like nationwide or any large company, yeah, you can do anything. You can be an accounting, um, you can fly the corporate jet, you know, if you want to be a pilot, you can sell insurance, you can, you know, you name it, you can be an HR. Um, but yet there's there were fewer moves than what you know, what would be optimal. Now, I think that a lot of this is starting to change. I think, you know, newer uh hires, they're more savvy. I think companies strive to move people around some more. Um, I think it's in everyone's best interests. But yeah, to answer your question directly, I was always conscious of you know, what am I missing out there? And the one thing, like I said, in running my own business, um, that if I had to do it again, type of thing. Thing. And I'm not one that has regrets. Uh, that's usually not how I operate. But you know, we always had a pretty decent network. Um, but I always tell people like you have to have a massive network and you have to constantly work at it. Um, and don't just think of your network inside the company. And you know, we got 30,000 employees, so uh, I was meeting people new departments and new faces all the time, uh, even after 24, you know, 24 years of still discovering new departments and new people. Um, but there's this whole outside world. In the outside world, you need that balance because if you really want to see where things are going, you have to look outside, you know, what's happening inside the company and put all the politics and the internal strife aside and see what's happening out there. Uh, the other realization I had is when you work with people outside your company, um, you tend to find people that are much more helpful, uh, much more uh much less guarded, and there isn't like a uh um an agenda. Um so I I was pleasantly pleased with how much people were there to you know help you in your next chapter. And that started on day one. Uh when I when I left nationwide, I remember meeting some people, and some were really loose connections, but they spent time with me and they were willing to help me get started. And um for for no no other reason that they've been through a similar situation and they were just looking to kind of get back. So um yeah, that that's how I would sum that up.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

And during the the 24 years you you know you obviously rose into into leadership. What you know, how much did nationwide make you the leader that you are, and and what have you realized about leadership since leaving and the you know the other roles that you've had outside of that corporate structure?

SPEAKER_01 23:59

Yeah, you know, and and and this is one of those things that I tie it back to like what's happening today, and just you know, companies I think are striving to get people back in settings where they can learn from each other and strike that healthy balance of you know remote plus you know interactions. But yeah, I I tremendous leadership opportunities. I mean, it I think it starts with you know the structure that's around you and you know, a lot of structure where um you you get to see all the different hierarchy of leaders, um, you experience the different styles, um, and it's very you know hands-on, right? When you're when you're in meetings with people and you're seeing how they conduct themselves, how they uh how they speak, how they carry themselves, what decisions they make, um who they hire, um, who they you know uh fire, you know, I I think that tells you an awful lot. And and I always thought that leadership, I remember I had this one boss who told me, came out to visit me. I had this regional um opportunity. I was in Illinois at the time, I ran this Illinois, Indiana, Michigan regional operation, and uh his name was Chuck. He came from the West Coast. He was a long timer, and he came out and he said, I just want to visit with you. And you know, we had coffee in the morning. He says, You know, I'm gonna take a walk around and just talk to people. Well, I start doing my daily things, and then before I know it, it's like four o'clock and it's getting late in the day, and I haven't seen Chuck all day long. And then he stops by around five o'clock, says, Hey, you want to go to dinner? And uh like, Yeah, sure. I thought we were in. So uh we we get to dinner, I'm like, Well, I thought you were just making like a walk around. And he said, I did. And um I said, Well, that was long, you know, we only had at the time, I don't know, maybe 50, 70 people in the office. Um, and he said, You know, I'm always trying to perfect my leadership style. And so I really spent a lot of time listening to people and getting to know them. And that like just struck me, you know, like right, like a two by four on the forehead. It's like, wow, you know, I wouldn't have thought of it like that. You know, I probably did a fair amount of that walking around, but there were flybys. Um, and and so the fact that Chuck, after what, 40 years in the industry, was still trying to improve his leadership style. Uh, so that kind of stuck with me. And I think that's it. See, this constant learning. But between that and then, you know, the other thing is um you have to get into those roles where you're really uncomfortable, you're throwing in something new, you've got to fix it, you've got to figure it out. Um, the thing that I love most about running operations was I felt like I ran my own business. So these massive budgets, you know, a couple thousand people at one time, um, multiple regions. You had all these issues and opportunities like a GM would have. But, you know, still having that claim craft meant you could get involved with some of the bigger strategic decisions, like on a case that's going to litigation or or one that's a complaint or whatever. You still were in the business. But yeah, the all those different assignments, plus, you know, just the opportunity to work with a wide variety of of leaders. And I'd say the same is true, Daniel, about the ones that were really ineffective. Maybe that list was even a little bit longer, to be honest with you. Um, you could see some of the things they and we've let's let's face it, we're all humans, so we would grouse about them. I can't believe they hired that individual. Or I can't believe we decided to do X. Um I think you learn more from those. You say, Well, I'm not gonna do that, especially if I'm out there being vocal about it, right? I don't want to make that mistake. Yeah. Um, so all that together um really helps you hone your skills. And then, you know, aside from that, I I'm a big advocate on any kind of training and development that's gonna make you better. Um there were quite a few external uh opportunities throughout my career where, you know, just good refreshers or good leadership assignments. Um Center for Creative Leadership was one of them, you know, early on that I went through. And uh that was pretty humbling. There's a funny story there, too. If you it was, you know, they did they were bigger doing a lot of things by video. Um so they they would watch not by video, but using video to um observe and then play back. And it's so at the time you you you kind of know you've been recorder, but you you forget about that. So we get into this one group, and it's a cross-section of people from different companies and industries, and we've got this leadership assignment, and we're we're stranded on the side of a mountain, it's it's snowing, it's really cold, the car breaks down, and you have all these different uh things that you know, there's like 10 or 12 of them, and it's you know, it's a hubcap and it's a cigarette lighter, and it's you know, it's a newspaper, and it's all these different things. And so as a team, you have to come up with what's the most important of those items one through 10, and then you have to explain why they were gonna help you survive the night in the freezing temperatures. And so as a group, you start debating, and you know, we we go through this whole thing. And I remember this one guy, he was like super convincing, and you know, I he positioned himself as like this outdoorsman type, and it's like, well, certainly Dave knows what he's talking about. So after about an hour of arguing, we we kind of gravitated toward Davey's very convincing, and we completely blew it. I mean, the hubcap was supposed to be like number one because you put snow in the metal hubcap. No one has a hubcap anymore. You put snow in the metal hubcab and use a cigarette lighter to melt it because drinking water was like the most important thing for your survival, right? Yeah, um, so you know, we watched the video and we all acted like buffoons for an hour, you know, stating our case and really getting it wrong. But then we asked this guy, Dave, you know, said, Well, we kind of followed you, and you know you've done a lot of outdoor stuff. He's like, Oh no, I never have. He says, I really have this problem. Sometimes I overconvince my team, and I I just have to be the voice that's heard. So I was like, it was hysterical that he actually admitted that. But um, those formal kinds of training and development opportunities, I think, are really good, especially if you can learn something from them like that. And um, that one really stuck with me because you know, even though I probably didn't practice that, um, I just remember how if you, you know, you if you're too convincing or too influential, you may steer things in a direction, but you may also steer them in the wrong direction. And you know, we've all been guilty of that.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

Well, we all have, and throughout history, you know, there have been calamitous campaigns led by very convincing leaders that have led to disaster. You know, I'm British, so you naturally think of the charge of the light brigade. Um, you know, that throughout history and and you know, since before history, there's always been a convincing person that's been the loudest person in the room that has ultimately taken people to disastrous ends. Um you either need to know how to spot them, right? That's only half the battle, but then knowing how to count them is is a bigger part of the battle, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:26

Yeah, and that topic alone is fascinating because when you work in an insurance industry and an insurance company environment, um things tend to get real bureaucratic. So if you're you know a personality and I was one of them, I am one of them. You get completely itchy over the idea that nothing's getting done and everything's groupthink and that it's slow and uh no decision gets made. Let's have another meeting. You want action, and especially in you know, being a claimant person, it was like you gotta make decisions and move on. You you know, you just can't let this linger. And so that would irritate me. So I had those tendencies to say, hey, let's just let's just go in this direction. And um, you know, most of the time, fortunately, it worked out right, it was the right call. Uh, but but you needed people around you that would pull pull back the reins a little bit now and then, whether it's your boss or a peer who some actually people that work for you, if you if you really create that trust and um allow them to to give their opinions, it it really you know is it's a powerful thing. Hard to do, but powerful.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

No, incredibly hard to do. But you know, the universe needs balance and you know having having risk-averse people with risk takers uh and like you say, the trust to for both to be able to challenge each other is ultimately the only way that anything happens that's going to be successful.

unknown 32:47

Right.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

Exactly. Um Alan, talking about your last role at uh nationwide, so VP of Claims Innovation Technology. So you were, and I'm I'm quoting your LinkedIn profile now, Alan. Um your objective was to design accelerate claims of the future. How close do you think you got?

SPEAKER_01 33:09

Um yeah, it was like this audacious, absurd, you know, like challenge, you know, develop the claims of the future and do it within two years. Look forward to what we're gonna be in 10 years and get it all done. And oh, by the way, there isn't really a budget for this, you have to kind of create one. Um so I knew that going into it. That's probably why I hesitated the first couple times. But you know, sometimes some of the worst assignments turn out to be the best blessing you'll get, right? And so um I was right, it only did last a couple of years. Um, and so that was probably you know, accelerated my movement outside. But the the upside was this really opened my eyes, and it was amazing to see because it was almost like this um, it still is, is this like unique period of time, this renaissance period of time in insurance, where for the first time you actually had like this whole industry out there that was well, they used the word disrupt, but you know, that's been softened now to what we really meant was be disruptive. And so you had all these outside investors with this money pouring in, you had all these brilliant people with technology, you had outsiders that had no insurance knowledge, which is more of a benefit than a detriment, and you had insurance companies that were saying we're committed to this and we're hiring roles and we're gonna put money behind it and make investments and so on. And so this renaissance all kind of came came together for so I found it fascinating. One of my early experiences was to go out to plug and play in um in California, and they're an accelerator, and you know, it was like just hearing the stories of these different startups and what they wanted to do, um, was really impressive. And so um, how close did we get? I'm proud that we we we actually planted the seeds, if you I'll be humble about it, because I never want to over um index something, uh especially when you're trying to change the world. You have to be careful about the the claims you make. But you know, we we started on this path where I was gonna go out and take inventory and everything that was going on and really try to make it better because I recognized that we had a bunch of um people that were already focused on innovative things, there was project so forth. What I discovered after a short time is people are extremely territorial about those projects and ideas and concepts because that's how they get rewarded. And so they weren't willing to share them. Um so that was kind of a few months of you know uh disappointment. Um then we went into a groove where you know what we'll just start talking to all the different solution providers and buy the best ones and try to plug them in. And that was great, but really overwhelming. There's literally thousands of different solution providers. You can't learn them all, you could never consume them. So that became like a really difficult endeavor. Um, so then I was like, wait a minute, let's just stop. What did we learn from these two steps? We learned that making change was very difficult, um, that it wasn't going to happen incrementally, that we needed a vision. There's it was like, let's start with what is the vision for this whole thing? And even though we could kind of um, you know, think about what it would look like, we needed help. And so that took us down the path of, you know, let's work with external experts. So we worked with IDEO. Um, and and the idea was, and we weren't the only company that did, but we were one of the earlier ones. And the idea there was to really, you know, how do we take this thing apart and you know, really focus on what we're trying to do, um, which was to make our claim response more um automated, to make it more modernized. And then when you really think about the claim process itself, it was built for internal purposes only. So here we were as an industry trying to digitize things, trying to get more self-service, um, trying to make it better for the customer, but more efficient as well. Uh, but but this construct wasn't built for you know an outside customer to experience. It kind of reminded me, it must have been in the early days of when uh airlines wanted people to book their own tickets, and they recognize we can't show them our internal booking system because they'll never understand it. It wasn't built from them, it was built for ticketing agents and you know, experts. And so, you know, we needed to create something that would make it simple. And so then we started to focus back in on, you know, if we could just give people updates, like a big problem in the claim process is communicating and sharing updates and status and and meaningful status, not like, hey, your claim's still open. It's like here here's you are in the process. Um, you know, use whatever analogy you want, the Domino's pizza tracker. You know, here, here's where your your order is standing. Um and so we took some of those influences and one of the more fun parts of that experiment was we brought in um people from the outside and we simulated auto accidents uh in a big parking lot. Not that we were trying to recreate the damage, but we were trying to recreate the experience. And uh it was really done effectively with sound and you know, the participants not knowing that they're gonna be in an accident, you know, they're like stop here behind the columns, and then all of a sudden the person in the back had a tablet, you hear this crash, and it's okay, you were just re-rended by another car. And they'd be startled. And so we kind of followed that through this journey all the way through. Um, so anyway, the long story short, there is we gathered a ton of information. We really painted the picture of what this future could look like um in a more you know automated world, and um, you know, put put together what it would take. So we went from that phase to building actual prototype. And when I left, um, that prototype was in production. And so very early stages of it. But I would also say if we ever get talking here in this time that we have about what's going on in the industry, um, you know, the difficulties are pretty apparent, right? The insurance industry tends to move fairly slow. Um, they're very methodic and careful about what it gets deployed out to customers. There's not a lot of room for experimentation or mistake making, especially in the claim process. And you really need those faculties to to make change. Yeah. And so I'd say a lot of it's still the same in that regard. But, you know, when I if you take a look back and what's happened over the last 10 years, you know, there's been tremendous strides in in different areas, yet we still have the same, you know, fundamental problems ahead of us. So uh there's a lot of room to go. I I think um placing bets on artificial intelligence as being kind of the breakthrough may be there. Um, but there's still some very basic things, some core things that need to get addressed. So when we talk about humanizing insurance, I it kind of stuck with me as I was thinking about this call today is you know, how much of really humanized insurance? And then there's this that whole challenge between let's automate and use intelligence, uh, but at the same time keep the human um where it needs to be. And I think as an industry that started to settle down, there was a lot of angst over that, you know, a few years back that you're gonna completely strip um the human interaction. But I think we're kind of getting to a point where we realize we can make it better. But but when you think today, there's still problems with customers being updated on their claims. There's still a lot of confusion over the product. Um, we've probably exacerbated a few things because when it hits people's pocket books, they tend to, you know, that can set the tone for anything. So they may be completely happy with the claim experience, but if they're paying a high premium or they're realizing their deductible is much higher than it was a few years ago and having to put out a pocket, um that still leads to a very dissatisfactory experience.

SPEAKER_00 41:37

Yeah. Um I mean, let's talk about innovation because we said at the start, you're no longer a nationwide, you left in 2019 and set up insurance at consulting. So you now see it a across the piece, you're not just claims, right? You you work across all of it. I'm interested what what what do you see now that you didn't see when you were inside the insurance machine?

SPEAKER_01 42:11

Uh the number one thing for me, because I experienced this the most through two two things really. The the number one thing I experience the most through the clients I serve, and I work with startups, um, established solution providers, um with investors, other carriers. Um but I think what's shocking to people that come from the outside that are especially trying to sell something into the insurance industry, because that's a lot of it, right? How do I, you know, I work with a startup or a company that's trying to grow grow. They're trying to sell something to the insurance industry. That's what they have in common. And some of them have been around for decades and are still trying to sell something to the insurance industry. Who do I talk to? What departments, you know, how's my product placement? You know, so we get involved with all those kinds of things. But what's shocking to most people is how long it takes and how hard and difficult it is to get to the right people. And even when you think you have a good solution and they agree, does it meet their timing and their priority list? And then even, you know, even just last week, I still hear an awful lot of we like it, we have no budget, all of our money has been diverted to growing the business right now. And I think you can't ignore what's happening at the top of the industry or what's happening to the industry, which is we've had these wild swings and profitabilities. It's been it's been really extreme. And that not only impacts um how the company views itself, but in premiums and real impact to customers, but also to how they throttle their innovation efforts. And so, you know, having a couple hard years, 22, 23, big pullback. But also what happens in insurance is this tail effect of things, right? Even though the those Things were happening in 22, 23. Um there was still a hangover in 24 and somewhat to 25. And even the profitability picture completely reversed and is on track to turn around. So, you know, that regulates their tempo on how much time and dedication. But that that's the biggest surprise to most is what is just how long it takes um to go through a sales cycle. And you know, if we'd be honest about it, it's not just a sales cycle with like well with one carrier, one client, it's how do they even get to that one? So they may have to talk to 20 companies, and and trying to get in front of 20 companies takes a long time. Um the the other one is I think for people that come from outside the industry, and this is this is kind of a good and bad thing, is how little they know about the industry. And what I love about it is well, why can't we just, you know, this? Why can't we just do that? And um you you love that because it causes you to rethink things, but um just trying to get people up to speed as to what makes things tick. Just an example, and this is um I'll have people ask me, you know, like, you know, who's the top five largest insurance companies and how much premium do they have, and how many claims do they get? And it's like you explain that the data is not always fully available, that it's reported through the National Association of Insurance Commissioners, and it's filtered, and then there's analysts and it's very lagging. And and they're like, well, why on this Rum report it shows this amount and the other report it shows the other one? Because some of it's forecasted, and it and you know, there's earned premiums and written premiums, all these different mechanics that I think people really struggle with, saying, Boy, in other industries, you just what's their top-line sales for the year? What's it's it's not quite as clear. Um, so I think that's just one example of how um nuanced the industry is. And for us in the insiders, we've come to gravitate toward it and understand it and even struggle sometimes. But for an outsider, it's really hard. Um, so I think that's the biggest issue, and it gives me a little heartburn in a way, because we're talking about artificial intelligence really taking over jobs and and um replacing jobs and revolutionizing things, but we're still in an industry that's catching up. I mean, you have some companies that are still replacing their policy admin systems, or they're migrating to the cloud, um, or they're needing to integrate all these other, you know, technologies they have, and they they've got a long, long list uh behind them. So, how do we go from that world to like this future world that's knocking on our door? And I see some evidence that companies are really purposeful and doing some great things. Um, most are just trying to figure out how do we contain it and not make a mistake. Um, how do we educate our workforce to use these tools with the right guardrails around them? And so that that paradox is out there. It's like um, and I think we're gonna be dealing with this for quite a while.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

Yeah. I I was at a conference last week, and I've been in the industry for a long time, and I know a bunch of people. Um, but I was you sat listening to some panels and some talks where uh people from the industry were saying how much better we're getting at innovation, how much faster we are, how much you know fast failing and and integrating new tech. But then I was also talking to vendors um and solution providers, and it was the same, you know, the same story is it takes 12 months if you're lucky to get anywhere, and then you have to go to a committee before a committee, before a committee, you know, just to prep for the ultimate committee, and you go through this bureaucratic innovation process that doesn't really understand what the problem is or what you're trying to do. So I guess my question is are we getting better or are we just getting better at telling ourselves that we're better?

SPEAKER_01 48:11

I I I don't well it depends what if we use the word better, but and I don't mean to parse that, but I think we're I I don't think we are uh faster. You know, and I think it's what I see is that the a lot of the insurance industry, when they work, especially with a startup or a new, and when I say startup, I'll I'll use that more like a a company's probably get funding, you know, they're series A, series B, they've been around for a few years, they've got a solution, they have customers, they have revenue, you know, not you know, not disparaging someone that's brand new, but um, you know, that they have something to sell. I I think what happens is um the carrier side loses sight of how long it took to get to that situation and how fragile and how important some of these companies are uh to their future, because you know, the insurance industry, like individual carriers, can invest in these technologies themselves and try to build them, or they could take advantage of other people's money, which is outside investors and you know only pay a fraction of it, right? And so it's uh you don't want to squander this opportunity. But um I think we're getting better at telling ourselves the story. You know, I would definitely lean toward that side of the scale. Um it just I I just think it's wired the way it is, and I think carriers are very accustomed to dealing with large service providers, big established companies that have been around forever, that can afford to do a pilot for 12 months for free because they're already selling you X number of other products and have revenue from you. Um used to contracting with big companies that go through these massive, and you can't sidestep info security, but you gotta get it done, right? But they can withstand that. They have resources, they have they have they have uh sales, sales force, they have product management people, you know. Yeah. The smaller companies don't have that. It's usually an entrepreneur and maybe a handful of people and someone like me trying to help guide them through. Um so I think it becomes much more random of what you know to which technology is going to survive. And then I don't know, aside from maybe a couple companies, that they've really been able to create that true sandbox environment. You know, they just can get in, test a bunch of things, try to break them, figure out if they work. Um I think I think the industry struggled doing that. There's a couple that that do pretty well there, but most, you know, it's a resource and then trying to find the right people. Um and the other thing I think the that gets in the way is uh I think companies uh always have shifting priorities, right? You would think that the growth and profitability and you know uh some of the core things would um keep a pretty consistent level of priorities, but it's constantly changing. So you you may have like a new leadership that comes in, and we're gonna we're gonna focus less on expenses and really try to improve our you know bottom line. Um, or we're gonna really tighten our expensive screw, expense screws, and you know, um bring that down. So it I think those uh shifts make it uh difficult as well. So what I've come to find is it really comes down to timing. You know, it's it's like they they know they have this problem, but you just get it at the right time. Because we've had clients we've worked with uh for for a couple of years and then it evaporates. We've had others we talk to and then think you, you know, three months later they call you back and hey, you know, I'm now interested. I I have one. So until those things change, I don't know how we're gonna ever get to the pace of what we all dream of, which would be, you know, look more like um you know, a retail environment or like uh, you know, uh electronics, you know, how fast those product cycles change. Yeah. We'll probably be we won't be compared to them, but there's definitely a lot more room to accelerate things. And I think a lot of it's just mindset, uh Daniel. I think it's just everyone's bought into this is how we do it, and it should take this long. And you know, I'm on a pilot with a company now, and it's been going on for like six months. And to be honest, you know, 60 days probably would have been fair enough, right? But it there's delays and leadership changes and all these realistic things that happened. So yeah, we we've got a long way to go. And that that has to that deserves more recognition, you know, the industry. And it has to like always start at the top. I think you know, the the the great thing that happened with innovation, and the other ingredient I probably overlooked was um you had CEOs that are really committed, right? And and you have them now. I mean, they every every boardroom is talking about what are we doing with AI, what what's our progress? We see these headlines from other companies and what they're doing, they're not replacing people or they're laying off, and you know, we want some of that too. Um so it's you know, but you really need that um C-suite pressure, you know, in support.

SPEAKER_00 53:23

For sure. Um last question. What when you look back on your career, what are you most proud of?

SPEAKER_01 53:36

Well, most maybe a couple things. I mean, I I hate to I'm never one that can distill it down to one thing. But you know, I'm really proud of the the um track record I created and just you know the ability to take on bigger and bigger uh opportunities and do them well. Um you know, I never wanted to leave anything in in a lesser condition than what I inherited it. And you know, you really set out to make it better, right? You're not gonna hit perfection, but you're gonna make it better. And I really feel like I did that um and took on more and more scale. And then I think you know, the latter part of my career here, it's been humbling in a lot of ways because you go from these kind of um these roles where there's a lot of um you know recognition and scale and size, and it's humbling when you go to a smaller setting. And fortunately, I I I did that uh going from you know, running this large-scale 3,800-person team to hey, you're gonna lead innovation, and it's you and a handful of people that you'll hire, and you know, you're on your own, um, which helped me for what I'm doing now, because uh, you know, you're completely on your own, although I had a business partner and some of my colleagues that I work with, but um being able to make those changes and and um be really comfortable with them. I mean, it took time. I mean, I won't be I'll be honest with you that I talked to a lot of people who have left like their corporate roles and they're going into their own private work now and trying to figure it out. And it's like it's very humbling, you know, when you have status and you know, you you're an executive and you have a title and you have um resources and now you're you know you're solo and you're trying to build a business and get work and convince other people. Um, but it's it's it's so rewarding because not only the accomplishment of doing it, but then you realize your knowledge and everything you did over those other years, people are very interested to hear from you and select this conversation today. At least you're you're interested in hearing it. I hope your viewers are or your listeners are as well. But um they really care what we have to say, and I I think that's uh it doesn't get any better than that. If you feel like you're really able to contribute and um that people respect what you've uh done and what you can help them with.

SPEAKER_00 56:01

Absolutely. Well, Alan, thank you so much for giving me your time and and sharing your story with us. I I thoroughly enjoyed our conversation, and I'm sure everyone listening will do too. Where should people go if they want to connect with you, find out more about you, or about insure tech consulting?

SPEAKER_01 56:20

Yeah, well, first, yeah, and I right back at you. I mean, I've enjoyed the conversation and the thought-provoking questions and your patience and listening to my stories. But um, yeah, if you want to reach me, you know, LinkedIn's always great, Alan Demurs and then uh insure techconsult.com. I've got my own website. Um, you can learn a lot there. So uh love to have people reach out and anything they want to chat about, whether it's uh related to what we talked about or just even leadership in general, or you know, to a lot of people that um are making similar exits from the the um corporate world into doing something different. So uh I'm open to talking.

SPEAKER_00 57:00

And for people that want to know more about the industry, you also run connected as well, don't you?

SPEAKER_01 57:04

You are uh really get to talk about that. And I I always, you know, it's funny because I think I'm probably most known for that these days is you know, you've connected this newsletter, and that's how people identify because that's our visible, you know, marketing, uh, if you will. But you know, that that's really designed to help people keep a finger on the pulse of you know what's happening every day. And so we publish every day, five days a week, and some of it's our own thought leadership uh content, but a lot of it's you know what's what's curated out there. So yeah, um connected um uh newsletter, you can find that also on my LinkedIn. You can subscribe for free. I hope they give it a try. And uh it comes in audio podcast uh version as well. It's not a podcast like this, but it's an audio version. And well, I can tell you a funny story about that at a different time, how that came about. But if you don't have time to read, you can listen for about 10 minutes and absorb a whole lot of information.

SPEAKER_00 58:02

Amazing. Well, I I've been subscribed to it for a number of years across a number of roles uh where it's landed in my inbox every day, and I find it hugely useful. So thank you for doing that, uh Alan.

SPEAKER_01 58:12

My pleasure. I'm glad you find value in it, and tell everybody sign up for free.

SPEAKER_00 58:17

Wonderful. Well, you heard it here. Go and sign up for for connected. Uh, Alan, thank you so much for for joining me on Humanized Insurance. My pleasure. Thank you. And that's it for this episode of Humanizing Insurance. If you enjoyed the conversation, the single biggest way that you can support the podcast is by sharing it. Send it to a colleague, post about it on your socials, or bring it into a conversational work. Every chair helps us reach more people across the industry and keeps these stories going. You can follow Humanizing Insurance on LinkedIn, where we share new episodes, clips, and reflections on across the insurance. As always, thanks for listening. And we'll see you next time.